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Replies:
9
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Last Post:
May 5, 2005 1:41 AM
by: psynixis
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making the system lnf the default ?
Posted:
May 1, 2005 11:48 AM
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sun says that jdk 1.6 is focusing on "ease of use", so why not making the system look and feel the default ?
do this change at least under windows: this is the platform on which the system look and feel is more mature.
why I'm proposing this change?
beause I'm sick of seeing swing applications running in windows using the metal or ocean look and feel! these apps don't fit in the windows desktop, they look "out of place"!
there are many, many java developers that don't even know how to change the look and feel, unfortunately. I've tried to teach how to change the lnf once, but the answer was: "I don't care". so making java apps looking like win32 native apps could help a little, IMHO.
if you really don't want to make it the default please at least add in the java control panel a simple option like "use always the system lnf for all applications".
thanks.
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Re: making the system lnf the default ?
Posted:
May 2, 2005 11:08 AM
in response to: furbotto
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+1
Extend and embrace folks... Learn from Microsoft. If people really want to use a cross-platform L&F (and some good ones are available!) then they will do so, otherwise we should be giving them a decent default!
Gili
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Re: making the system lnf the default ?
Posted:
May 2, 2005 12:15 PM
in response to: furbotto
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Absolutely. I think this would be a helpful thing to do. There is a huge lack of awareness amongst developers (not only Java developers) about what it takes to design a great user interface. And by that I mean that the interface should be easy to learn, easy to use, and be visually appealing.
And a key part of software being easy to learn, and easy to use is the application behaving like other applications. In other words, it's not only the "look" that counts; the "feel" is just as - in fact even more - important. It's little things like having the right keyboard shortcuts for cut and paste (which are different across different OS desktops); the behaviour and locations of menus etc.
It would be fabulous to see the Java community take the requirements for dealing properly with application look and feel seriously.
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Re: making the system lnf the default ?
Posted:
May 4, 2005 9:08 AM
in response to: psynixis
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So, using Windows Media Player or Real Player should be a real challenge for users, since they don't have a native "feel"? Come on!
UIs are hard to learn because developers can't figure out how to assemble intuitive menu heirarchies and lay out dialogue boxes logically, not because a button has a "Metal" look instead of a "Windows" look.
Now, if you're arguing that Metal is uglier than the native look, or that it "feels out of place", I won't argue with you. But users can't figure out buttons that look a little different? Then how on earth can they figure out all the dozens of websites that all have different-looking buttons and links?
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Re: making the system lnf the default ?
Posted:
May 5, 2005 1:29 AM
in response to: afishionado
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Hmmmmm... I wonder if you know what terms "feel" actually refers to, in talking about user interfaces? It's not the same as "look". "Feel" is about the way the application responds to user inputs from the mouse and keyboard. It's pretty important.
As for the look not being important. Well, of course, people *can* figure out simple user interface elements. But developers make life *easier* for their users, if various UI elements *look* the same as the applications they're used to. That is the *look* of an element should give the user a clue as to how it will *behave*.
I think "intuitive" is a dangerous word when it comes to user interfaces. People simply do not *know* instinctively how to use any given piece of software. They have to *learn* how to use it. So, a big part of designing a great interface is to understand how people are expected to learn it. As an aside, you mention dialogue boxes as being important in user interfaces. Developers *love* dialogue boxes. But, great user interface designs shouldn't include many (if any) dialogue boxes, especially not modal ones (which is the majority of them). Why? Because they don't work. Why don't they work? Because users don't behave the way the developer wants. The developer wants the user to pause, and consider their carefully thought out (if only!) question. The user wants to get on with doing what they want to do. So they just click without thinking, only realising too late they did the wrong thing.
Are you really holding up Windows Media Player and the bulk of web-sites as examples of good designs that people find easy to learn and use? In my experience, people have lots problems trying to figure out how to make programs like Media Player do what they want; and, people *do* have problems navigating plenty of web-sites. This is partly because the "look" of the interfaces is poor; in some cases, the look is so badly designed users can't even *see* what the user interface buttons/links are supposed to be (CSS have a lot to answer for!). It's partly because the "feel" is poor - "Why can't I drag this song to my desktop?" And, it's lots to do with other aspects of the design e.g. hidden user interface features and modal behaviour - "How do I get this thing out of full-screen mode?"
Message was edited by: psynixis
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Re: making the system lnf the default ?
Posted:
May 4, 2005 12:19 AM
in response to: furbotto
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I was thinking that this change could help improving the code written by programmers too: if you test your app under various operating systems you'll have to deal with the different system lnf, so you'll have to use correctly the layout managers, fonts, etc...
anyway I'd like to hear some comments from sun people.
thanks.
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Re: making the system lnf the default ?
Posted:
May 4, 2005 8:46 AM
in response to: furbotto
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I think setting the system l&f as default l&f is a good suggestion. +1 for that. It will help those programmers who arent aware of l&f's, or don't really care, to get a familiar l&f to their programs.
Although i see a drawback with this: pushing out a crossplatform l&f won't be as easy. (I assume that was Sun's plan with metal/ocean).
But I don't think the user should be allowed to override the applications l&f at all times. The design/look of an application is the choice of the programmer/designer, and if they want all their customers to use a certain l&f, then they would have to use that l&f at all times. Letting the user change the l&f for an application is also the choice of the programmer.
BUT, I think an override could be allowed if no l&f is explicity set in the application. But then again, it will be confusing to the user. They won't know which applications have their l&f's explicity set. To them, the override will work sometimes, other times don't. (Most likely, users who are confused with this won't even bother looking at the java control panel anyway, so this probably won't be a problem =)).
So, instead of adding "use always the system lnf for all applications" to the java control panel, add something like "use XX as the default look and feel". Then that l&f will be set only if the program doesn't explicitly set any l&f itself. This option should be set to "system look and feel" as default of course.
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Re: making the system lnf the default ?
Posted:
May 4, 2005 9:12 AM
in response to: tlund_
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Sun makes it's JREs use Metal by default as a way of automatically "branding" Java programs as Java programs rather than as Windows or Linux programs. Apple makes it's JRE use the OS X look to try to brand Java programs as Apple programs.
OK, that's just speculation on my part. But I suspect that Sun wants people to notice Java programs as Java programs, which, as far as developers are concerned, itsn't really a good thing.
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Re: making the system lnf the default ?
Posted:
May 4, 2005 10:07 AM
in response to: afishionado
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> as far as developers are concerned, itsn't really a good thing
Do you have data that supports that _users_ think so as well?
Dmitri
Java2D Team
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Re: making the system lnf the default ?
Posted:
May 4, 2005 11:01 AM
in response to: trembovetski
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I don't think the issue is whether users really really care about a native l&f, and engaging in adebate about this is going to be as fruitless as it has forever been. Sun's pushing a cross-platform l&f when Swing came out was a right thing for that time, when Metal was still relatively modern. Making Metal the default L&F means that whether you like it or not, most Swing apps get built using that L&F. And Metal has not kept up with the times. In my view, the problem has been the lack of competition. Earlier on, I had seen Sun's response to people's grouses about Platform L&F not having fidelity being - "OK, use Metal", and to grouses about Metal being so different being "OK, use the Platform L&F". Kind of the buck got passed and there never was that real push to improve. Making the Platform L&F the default would have led to even more complaints about its fidelity, and forced Sun to fix things up sooner.
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