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[FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Oct 29, 2008 9:33 AM
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... the official terminus is "frozen" - but as that happened already in
July and everybody in the core team is well over their ears into FX it
looks rather permanent to me.
In other words: I'm no longer paid since July. Which might explain my
spurious appearance here. Just doing the barest possible work to not let
SwingX blow up. My personal deadline to seriously look for a new
contract is the end of this /start of next year - after more vacation
and giving a BOF at Javapolis .. ehhh ... Devoxx (what a shame the name
change is!)
CU
Jeanette
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Oct 30, 2008 2:42 AM
in response to: kleopatra
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Sigh. What a bummer. Not that I'm really that surprised, it was kinda
obvious that their hearts weren't in it.
Thanks for the all the sterling support work!
Regards, Noel.
kleopatra wrote:
>
> ... the official terminus is "frozen" - but as that happened already
> in July and everybody in the core team is well over their ears into FX
> it looks rather permanent to me.
>
> In other words: I'm no longer paid since July. Which might explain my
> spurious appearance here. Just doing the barest possible work to not
> let SwingX blow up. My personal deadline to seriously look for a new
> contract is the end of this /start of next year - after more vacation
> and giving a BOF at Javapolis .. ehhh ... Devoxx (what a shame the
> name change is!)
>
> CU
> Jeanette
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: jdnc-unsubscribe@jdnc.dev.java.net
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>
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Oct 30, 2008 9:15 AM
in response to: Noel Grandin
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It's not so much that our hearts weren't in it, but that we've asked
to do a pile of other work
and there is only so much time in a day.
Jeanette - I want to personally thank you for leading the effort to
create such an outstanding
swing extensions library. You've been the heart and soul of the
project since the beginning
and it's been a pleasure to watch (yes, I still read most the traffic).
I hope that whatever endeavor you take next that we'll continue to see
your presence in
Java and Swing. Maybe you'll even give JavaFX a try....? 
Aim
On Oct 30, 2008, at 2:42 AM, Noel Grandin wrote:
>
> Sigh. What a bummer. Not that I'm really that surprised, it was kinda
> obvious that their hearts weren't in it.
>
> Thanks for the all the sterling support work!
>
> Regards, Noel.
>
> kleopatra wrote:
>>
>> ... the official terminus is "frozen" - but as that happened already
>> in July and everybody in the core team is well over their ears into
>> FX
>> it looks rather permanent to me.
>>
>> In other words: I'm no longer paid since July. Which might explain my
>> spurious appearance here. Just doing the barest possible work to not
>> let SwingX blow up. My personal deadline to seriously look for a new
>> contract is the end of this /start of next year - after more vacation
>> and giving a BOF at Javapolis .. ehhh ... Devoxx (what a shame the
>> name change is!)
>>
>> CU
>> Jeanette
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: jdnc-unsubscribe@jdnc.dev.java.net
>> For additional commands, e-mail: jdnc-help@jdnc.dev.java.net
>>
>>
>
>
> Disclaimer: http://www.peralex.com/disclaimer.html
>
>
>
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Oct 30, 2008 11:23 PM
in response to: Amy Fowler
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Sigh. Then what will be happened to SwingX?
Java standard UI components are so few. So what open source UI component
pack we should use onwards?
Can JavaFX replace swing?
On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 12:15 AM, Amy Fowler <Amy.Fowler@sun.com> wrote:
> It's not so much that our hearts weren't in it, but that we've asked to do
> a pile of other work
> and there is only so much time in a day.
>
> Jeanette - I want to personally thank you for leading the effort to create
> such an outstanding
> swing extensions library. You've been the heart and soul of the project
> since the beginning
> and it's been a pleasure to watch (yes, I still read most the traffic).
>
> I hope that whatever endeavor you take next that we'll continue to see your
> presence in
> Java and Swing. Maybe you'll even give JavaFX a try....?
>
> Aim
>
>
> On Oct 30, 2008, at 2:42 AM, Noel Grandin wrote:
>
>
>> Sigh. What a bummer. Not that I'm really that surprised, it was kinda
>> obvious that their hearts weren't in it.
>>
>> Thanks for the all the sterling support work!
>>
>> Regards, Noel.
>>
>> kleopatra wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> ... the official terminus is "frozen" - but as that happened already
>>> in July and everybody in the core team is well over their ears into FX
>>> it looks rather permanent to me.
>>>
>>> In other words: I'm no longer paid since July. Which might explain my
>>> spurious appearance here. Just doing the barest possible work to not
>>> let SwingX blow up. My personal deadline to seriously look for a new
>>> contract is the end of this /start of next year - after more vacation
>>> and giving a BOF at Javapolis .. ehhh ... Devoxx (what a shame the
>>> name change is!)
>>>
>>> CU
>>> Jeanette
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: jdnc-unsubscribe@jdnc.dev.java.net
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: jdnc-help@jdnc.dev.java.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Disclaimer: http://www.peralex.com/disclaimer.html
>>
>>
>>
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--
Let's care our nature!!!
[att1.html]
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Oct 31, 2008 3:30 AM
in response to: Batbayar Bazarr...
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Batbayar Bazarragchaa wrote:
> Sigh. Then what will be happened to SwingX?
> Java standard UI components are so few. So what open source UI
> component pack we should use onwards?
>
Guys, it's advisable that Sun (or other big companies) support open
source projects such as SwingX and it's a pity when they need to drop
that support. But - they are open source projects, the community must be
able to support them all the way.
--
Fabrizio Giudici, Ph.D. - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/blog
Fabrizio.Giudici@tidalwave.it - mobile: +39 348.150.6941
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Oct 31, 2008 5:19 AM
in response to: Fabrizio Giudici
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SwingX is only open-source in the sense that it's GPL-licensed.
The "community", such as it is, exercises no control what-so-ever over
the project.
Fabrizio Giudici wrote:
> Batbayar Bazarragchaa wrote:
>> Sigh. Then what will be happened to SwingX?
>> Java standard UI components are so few. So what open source UI
>> component pack we should use onwards?
>>
> Guys, it's advisable that Sun (or other big companies) support open
> source projects such as SwingX and it's a pity when they need to drop
> that support. But - they are open source projects, the community must
> be able to support them all the way.
>
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Oct 31, 2008 3:58 AM
in response to: Amy Fowler
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Amy,
thanks for your kind funeral oration, will RIP <g>
Cheers
Jeanette
BTW: the related (parallel because the gateway between mailinglist and
forum is broken since weeks, nobody around to keep at least a minimal
infrastructure up?) thread is
http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=52665&tstart=0
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Oct 31, 2008 2:43 PM
in response to: kleopatra
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Jeanette & all -
My note wasn't meant to convey an end to anything -- merely trying to
express gratitude to
Jeanette (and the community) for carrying the helm for so long.
SwingX is a great extensions
library that exists because the community drove the development in the
direction they needed.
I don't see that ending. And Swing will always be a part of the
desktop Java platform, no matter
who comes and goes on the team.
And for the record, JSR296 (App Framework) is very much alive and we
are currently looking
for someone to lead JSR295 (Beans Binding).
Aim
p.s. let me look into what the heck is going on with the
infrastructure.....
On Oct 31, 2008, at 3:58 AM, kleopatra wrote:
>
> Amy,
>
> thanks for your kind funeral oration, will RIP <g>
>
> Cheers
> Jeanette
>
> BTW: the related (parallel because the gateway between mailinglist
> and forum is broken since weeks, nobody around to keep at least a
> minimal infrastructure up?) thread is
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=52665&tstart=0
>
>
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 3, 2008 1:00 PM
in response to: Amy Fowler
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Hiya,
I was abut to reply something similar, so just for whoever will read
that thread some time later:
just because there is no funding at the moment, it doesn't mean project
is dead. There are committers contributing to the project without
getting paid and as long as there is interest, the project will go on. I
will continue to run day-to-day things and do the releases as necessary,
and hopefully in few months i'll be able to invest even more time to it.
> p.s. let me look into what the heck is going on with the
> infrastructure.....
>
I just restarted hudson and re-run the weekly build. It seems to be
holding steady for now.
What happens there is that cvs client ends up hanging while logging to
cvs. It seems to be Solaris-only issue as we had not experienced it on
the old server and I'm not getting it on any other linux box running
hudson & cvs.
The only question I have related to current situation, is what will
happen with the server running web and what will happen with the domain?
If necessary I would be able to run it from one of my own boxes, but in
this case we should perhaps get in touch and organize transfer so
everything goes smoothly.
Cheers,
Jan
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Oct 31, 2008 5:43 AM
in response to: kleopatra
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----- Original Message -----
From: Noel Grandin <noel@peralex.com>
To: jdnc@jdnc.dev.java.net
Subject: Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:19:59 +0200
> SwingX is only open-source in the sense that it's
> GPL-licensed.
Which other sense do you see?
> The "community", such as it is, exercises no control
> what-so-ever over the project.
Who's preventing other people from participating? Submitting
code, patches? Who's preventing (eventually) to fork it? Of
course I'm absolutely not advocating a fork, but I mean that
being GPL is "open source" in all senses and doesn't mean
that the thing can go on only and only if there's Sun
sponsoring it.
BTW, I also hope some other company could at least partially
sponsor the work of the outstanding committers.
--
Fabrizio Giudici, Ph.D. - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici -
www.tidalwave.it/blog
Fabrizio.Giudici@tidalwave.it - mobile: +39 348.150.6941
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 5, 2008 3:39 AM
in response to: kleopatra
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My two thoughts:
- I hope this decision does not imply that SUN is leaving the desktop (again).
- Does it mean that things like the JXTreeTable, etc will never make it to Swing? What a pitty
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 5, 2008 9:13 AM
in response to: montechristos
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Hi guys. This is Josh Marinacci from Sun.
We've all been very busy working on the JavaFX 1.0 release, so we
haven't been as responsive on the mailing lists as we should. I'm
sorry about that and we'll try to do better going forward. I would
like to clear up some misconceptions regarding Sun's support for Swing
and SwingLabs.
* Is Sun canceling SwingLabs? No. SwingLabs and it's mission
haven't changed. There is still a need for high quality open source
Swing components, and SwingLabs still exists to do that. It hasn't
been canceled. Richard Bair even has a BOF scheduled for it next month
at Devoxx.
* Is Sun stopping work on Swing? No. Swing continues to be improved
as you saw in Java 6 and will see in Java 7. Due to the nature of the
JCP process we cannot add new API features in update releases, but you
will see new stuff in Java 7.
* Is JavaFX taking away from Swing? While we have temporarily shifted
some resources to focus on the upcoming JavaFX 1.0 release, Swing
remains a crucial part of the client Java platform. JavaFX even
allows you to mix Swing and JavaFX graphics nodes in the same
application to do some very cool things. We'll have a sample at launch
which shows you how to do this.
* Are you going to improve Swing? Actually, we already have been!
Much of the work done recently has been in JavaSE 6 update 10. Most of
these improvements benefit Swing applications as well as JavaFX ones.
Things like the new robust applet plugin, the new Nimbus L&F, better
hardware acceleration, and the better Java install experience. These
are all features which make the life of a Swing developer much, much
better.
As a life long client Java developer I have never been happier with
the current state of the Java stack. Client Java applications are
becoming faster, more reliable, and easier to develop. And this is
true for both Swing and JavaFX applications. Stay tuned for the 1.0
release of JavaFX. I think you will be happy when you see what we've
been working on. It's an exciting time to be a GUI app developer on
the Java platform.
Thank you,
Josh
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 6, 2008 3:30 AM
in response to: Joshua Marinacci
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> Is Sun canceling SwingLabs? No. SwingLabs and it's mission haven't changed.
No but the support we had from sun towards the effort has changed. Are you claiming stopping any funding of SwingLabs or any official 'sponsorship' of the related JSRs and libraries beansbindings, appframework, timingframework, transitions, jdic, pdf reader?? etc.. is a good thing - because it's not its going to be detrimental and sends clear messages, intentional or not of where your priorities have shifted. Noted there's a BOF on swinglabs (probably the last?) but no main talk on Swing core or the JSRs it's JavaFX that gets the spotlight. It's OK to have enthusiasm for the new kid on the block, but continuing to favour JavaFX over Swing will be damaging to the Swing community at large. Or are you committing to some serious Swing love-in after the JavaFX release at the expense of JavaFX? I mean it's not going away any time soon and Sun as a company isn't growing or particularly healthy. Are both code bases going to receive the same amount of development and support or is one realistically going to lose-out.
I guess if your looking for a new lead for beansbindings Shannon has left? or it another case of opening it to community contributions i.e. unfunded and therefore hoping for some sporadic third-party goodwill efforts? The whole history of those JSRs is apaulling really there in a very rough draft state, artificially promoted to 1.0 to get into Netbeans 6.0 and dropped like a stone, no support on forums or to bug reports. How do we know Sun won't do the same with JavaFX further down the line like so many other failed initiatives before it?
I'm quite concerned by your, amys and richards replies that all suggest we should be looking forward to JavaFX and even start switch to JavaFX for development. First off I thought JavaFX was targeted at web designers and not java developers per-se and all JavaFX script would be autogenerted by tools (if so a Java like syntax would seem like a mistake as designers would no doubt prefer a javascript/actionscript syntax). I fail to see how JavaFX would be of any interest to a Swing developer writing a traditional fat client. If our client needed a web-based tool I'd have written a web app. Where does JavaFX fit? inbetween the two? would it make for a new component library for JSF? Until JavaFX reaches a certain saturation point it's not really of any consequence to me as a perspective platform, it's got a lot of ground to cover to catch up with its rivals first.
> Is Sun stopping work on Swing? No. Swing continues to be improved
>.. you will see new stuff in Java 7.
What new stuff in Swing are you talking about? are there Vista PLAF improvements? or does Nimbus spell the end of any native fidelity attempts? will the RowSorter concept get added to the other list based components? seems Scott stopped sort of this combboxes, trees and the like? what about support/gestures for turning off the column sort and gestures for multi-column sorting. Will SwingX components get moved into the core? Can we expect core ribbon component support (flamingo) or even a PropertySheet? Are are you talking about the scraps falling from the masters table, transparent windows, scenegraph and the like? Seem to remember Chris Cambell had serious doubts that the scenegraph API was accessible to Swing developers in a useful way http://forums.java.net/jive/message.jspa?messageID=282828#282828 indeed an interface/facade API for Swing may be needed? but reading between the lines the will to produce this seems to be lacking. Same question for JWebPane will it be available as a separate download for Swing developers? or will we have to wait till 7.0? will it offer a useful API to Swing or is it heavily geared to the JavaFX internals too?
Still have my doubts over JavaFX I don't like mixing all the control & view logic altogether with animation in the same script. Strikes me as a recipe for spaghetti code. Although for smaller application it may not matter too much? or until people use it issues over maintenance and testing hasn't been an concern. Also the target audience? it for primarily Java developers to do Flash like things without learning Flash? that's got to be a relatively small audience. RIA apps are inherently more difficult to develop, while JavaFX covers some of this from a presentation point of view there's the whole server side support that needs integrating too so the initial ease-of-use is kind of negated.
As a life long client Java developer I have never been unhappier and utterly fed-up and had so many alternative client development options available to me.
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 6, 2008 7:18 AM
in response to: osbald
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Richard, you're making a few incorrect assumptions.
- JavaFX isn't just for web developers
- JavaFX != JavaFX Script
- Flex is built on Flash, and is of interest to enterprise developers. Why would JavaFX libraries built on top of JavaFX not be of interest to enterprise developers?
- JavaFX isn't a web based tool. It is just like java -- run in browser, out of browser, on mobile...
A lot of this angst is premature, wait until the releases and roadmaps are made public (sooooon) before throwing tomatoes at me at Devoxx .
I know Swing, I know app development, I sympathize and completely understand the mood of the Swing community (having come from the Swing community & app development before joining Sun). I know the limitations of Swing and also the really great flexibility and features.
A number of my friends and colleagues have moved on to Google or Adobe or other places (some of them simply for a change). I could have gone too. The reason I'm here at Sun working on JavaFX is because the scene graph APIs and other platform APIs we're working on are *really* exciting. They excite me as a Swing developer. Many many things we wanted to do with Swing but couldn't, that we wanted to do in SwingX but couldn't, we can do in JavaFX. I don't think I can emphasize this enough. JavaFX (and I don't mean the language!) gives us power and freedom that we've not had in 10 years.
Sun is pouring a lot of resources into the client right now.
Will there be an interop story between JavaFX and Swing? Of course. But some of these things will take some time -- a few months maybe, I cannot say for sure until our roadmaps are public, but obviously it would be folly to chase a new market and ignore our current market. That's not going to happen.
Richard
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 6, 2008 9:03 AM
in response to: rbair
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>
> I know Swing, I know app development, I sympathize
> and completely understand the mood of the Swing
> community (having come from the Swing community & app
> development before joining Sun). I know the
> limitations of Swing and also the really great
> flexibility and features.
>
> A number of my friends and colleagues have moved on
> to Google or Adobe or other places (some of them
> simply for a change). I could have gone too. The
> reason I'm here at Sun working on JavaFX is because
> the scene graph APIs and other platform APIs we're
> working on are *really* exciting. They excite me as a
> Swing developer. Many many things we wanted to do
> with Swing but couldn't, that we wanted to do in
> SwingX but couldn't, we can do in JavaFX. I don't
> think I can emphasize this enough. JavaFX (and I
> don't mean the language!) gives us power and freedom
> that we've not had in 10 years.
>
Spot on Richard!! and very nicely put. That's what I have been trying to tell the Swing crowd all along. JavaFX is good for you, it's good for Swing, and it's good for the Java UI story in general. Unfortunately, all you hear from them is doom and gloom.
Swing is great, powerful toolkit. But for all it's flexibility it's still stuck in the forms and fields, and rectangular boxes paradigm of user interfaces. It is the wrong kind of flexibility for the needs of modern RIA based UIs, where every object on the screen of any geometric shape can be your intelligent UI component. No amount of tweaking to Swing is gonna get you out in a straightforward matter out of the boxes paradigm, and into the new world of rich, sometimes 3D, shapes. Look how much trouble it was to add painters API to Swing that they had to pull it out at the last minute.
Doesn't it occur to anybody who's complaining that maybe JavaFX is in a sense the Swing 2.0 that all those same Swing developers have been whining, and clamoring about? Just under a different name.
Message was edited by: mikeazzi
Message was edited by: mikeazzi
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 6, 2008 9:55 AM
in response to: mikeazzi
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>But for all it's flexibility it's still stuck in the forms and fields, and rectangular boxes
>paradigm of user interfaces. It is the wrong kind of flexibility for the needs of modern RIA
>based UIs
Is there a *need* for modern RIA based UIs? what would you have me replace boring financial tables and forms with? perhaps I could replace the daily figures with dancing vikings on spinning cubes while the latest youtube vid plays in the top corner? I think striking the right balance and going at the users pace will be the key. But ultimately wordprocessors and spreadsheets haven't changed all that much in 20 odd years. Would they be better in 3d?
You know why Swing is stuck in it's boring rectangular world? could it be because they didn't add Painters and Binding support when they had the chance? If Swing is stale it's Suns fault.
>Doesn't it occur to anybody who's complaining that maybe
>JavaFX is in a sense the Swing 2.0 that all those same
>Swing developers have been whining, and clamoring about?
Nicely put, and if you can't convince us the dedicated hardcore fans of client-side Java (aka whiners) of the benefits of JavaFX then you really are screwed.
Message was edited by: osbald
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 6, 2008 10:17 AM
in response to: osbald
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> Is there a *need* for modern RIA based UIs? what
> would you have me replace boring financial tables and
> forms with? perhaps I could replace the daily figures
> with dancing vikings on spinning cubes while the
> latest youtube vid plays in the top corner? I think
> striking the right balance and going at the users
> pace will be the key. But ultimately wordprocessors
> and spreadsheets haven't changed all that much in 20
> odd years. Would they be better in 3d?
Fantastic!
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 6, 2008 10:39 AM
in response to: osbald
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>
> Is there a *need* for modern RIA based UIs? what
> would you have me replace boring financial tables and
> forms with? perhaps I could replace the daily figures
> with dancing vikings on spinning cubes while the
> latest youtube vid plays in the top corner? I think
> striking the right balance and going at the users
> pace will be the key. But ultimately wordprocessors
> and spreadsheets haven't changed all that much in 20
> odd years. Would they be better in 3d?
>
Let me turn your question around. Why would a modern UI (RIA, or not) have to stay stuck, and confined to the boring world of forms, fields and rectangular boxes just because word processors, and spreadsheets are like that? You know, the world out there is not just word processors, and spreadsheets. It's made out of real objects, and it would really be more interesting, and exciting if I could interact with something much closer looking to these real objects than boxes. Believe me, you should try it some day:
http://www.flex888.com/906/a-way-cool-ui-design.html
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 6, 2008 1:59 PM
in response to: mikeazzi
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I'll make a real world observation here. My fathers company back in the 90's used a pc application that used crurses and let them quickly fill in forms by using keyboard short cuts and tabs. They then got a new version of the application written for Windows 98 and it made use of windows and a mouse. It all looked fantastic but when they used it productivity slowed to a crawl. They got the company providing the software to re-install the old software.
Now I'm not saying that things shouldn't move on but I think Sun should take a long hard look at the kind of things customers are doing with Swing. I've worked on dozens of Swing apps over the years for different organisations, I'm a Java Swing contractor. Now I can't think of one of them where the fancy JavaFX stuff would be of any use at all. Now that isn't to say it isn't needed and certainly it will add something to Java however I'd urge Sun to put the bulk of the effort where it really should be. I'd say from my perspective and my customers perspective that the following are really needed badly:
1) A standard framework for java apps that gives you the basics out of the bag. I'm thinking modern look and feel (Nimbus is close but a bit quirky). I'm thinking standard code to remember the state of the app, I'm thinking easier table handling, I'm thinking much better file chooser support (existing is buggy as hell and old hat).
2) Get rid of all the problems with taking a swing app and porting it to webstart and applets, did this recently it was a nightmare with all the security issues and the number of calls that don't work in applets. Got it working eventually but really in this day and age it should have been a case of piping the code through a tool to highlight potential problems and offer solutions.
3) We want to be able to hook widgets easily to data sources such as Database, I/O pipes.
4) Standard Wizard API
5) Introduce JXLayer into Swing, cool component.
6) Much much better xml reading and writing API. There seems to be a miriad of API's out there and they are all a pain to use. I recently tried to get JAXB to produce code from various xsd files and it failed for all but the trival ones. I said they were none standard but .Net tools coped fine !
7) Badly in need of a standard VM and JDK for phones and mobile platforms. Currently if you write for one you have no idea if it will work on the other .
...
...
Anyway thats a start.
Maybe JavaFX will be the new way forward but I've seen nothing at the moment that makes me think its going to help in the work I do or the work anyone else I know working on Java front ends. Sure a slicker front end may help to make things look better but really for most companies the benefit is in turning out something for the job as quickly and with as little cost as possible. Application Framework, thats what I want to see.
Random Ramblings over.
Steve
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Re: Future Thinking
Posted:
Nov 7, 2008 7:49 AM
in response to: mikeazzi
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>You know, the world out there is not just word processors, and spreadsheets. It's made
>out of real objects, and it would really be more interesting, and exciting if I could interact
>with something much closer looking to these real objects than boxes. Believe me, you
>should try it some day:
Well it's a fun distraction but it's not remotely practical is it? you'd be limited to several objects before visual organisation becomes an issue. Your emails look limited to 20 characters (and to/from people with very short names). Isn't duplicating real world objects in the virtual world wrong thinking? the reasons why those object were designed the way they were their physicality and tactility, which they're robbed of in these virtual interfaces. The cd case and newspaper are prime examples. Reminded me of a proof of concept set-top box interface I helped design for swisscom back in '97 (using AWT!!).. the more we tried to escape the windows world and stretch real world analogies they more we realised how stubbornly efficient and practical these boring windows and widgets really are, good design persists.
bumptop is better BTW http://lifehacker.com/5065105/shock-desktop-3d-is-like-bumptop-but-available-now
I'd expect interface revolutions to be accompanied by peripheral interface changes. think the ipod dial, or iphone touch screen & tilt, wii nunchucks or even Microsofts surface (but touch my monitor with your grubby fingers and I'll break them). The keyboard, mouse & monitor work really well together, as do windows apps and web forms. Would it be so much of an improvement if every web app turned into a rich client, every website using a different ui and framework, no it'd be bedlam and Tim Berners Lee would be tearing his hair out over the loss of accessibility & semantic web (from a browser plugin perspective).
It's funny how these things keep coming round like fashions. IBM had a real world type ui framework a decade ago. I'm a huge Kia Krause fan and the stuff he was doing over a decade ago was amazing. hard to find good links now http://www.mprove.de/script/99/kai/2Software.html but these are still a master class in initiative and fun designs. Kais interfaces were all about having fun and experimenting - but are they usable? user-friendly? are they accessible? Plenty of critical acclaim but they still failed to catch on.
I'm not simply saying If it ain't broke don't fix it. But good designs are hard, and certain interfaces each have their place. A design that'll work for every conceivable application and on every single device of your life? Part of a good user design is keeping that consistency with the users expectations, it's not rocking the boat, it's also about don't make me think. Animations need to be subtle else they're distracting like (blink) tags. They need to add value in term of the users comprehension not be purely gratuitous. The latter can quickly become annoying like Linux Compiz Fusion - fun for half an hour or while you have guests around, but you turn it off when theres work to be done.
Ed: Sorry if this gets bumped, doing some self-editing, boy did I get out the wrong side of the bed that day 
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 6, 2008 9:36 AM
in response to: rbair
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> JavaFX isn't just for web developers
But that's your primary target right? or else why the new plugin changes to make sure Java works well in the browser, the two-way access to the dom model and the media support. It makes a lot of sense as this is where the vast majority of client facing development is done these days. That's going to be the choice for the developer - access the dom and your stuck in the browser or standalone semi-fat client (semi-skimmed) that can sync with the network.
> JavaFX != JavaFX Script
But the component have been written primarily for JavaFX and some may be too low level to leverage from Swing and the work to produce Swing friendly APIs isn't on the roadmap yet? Would you imagine mixing Swing and JavaFX would become common then? I'd have expected the mix of components one PLAF, focus, model, view, controller and event based wouldn't sit well with free form scripts and custom animating controls. Never mind having to context switch between two languages all the time. At the moment at least a server side guy can read my client code and fix simple problems. We speak the same language even if we don't fully understand each of our APIs. I'm no stranger to Swing/Client code and I've looked at JavaFX Script and much of it is gobbledegook to me (as no doubt Swing/Java might be to a JavaFX script developer).
> Why would JavaFX libraries built on top of JavaFX not be of interest to enterprise developers?
Well not the same developers. Most developers stick to their core knowledge, an EJB developer will stick with EJBs. Mostly they'll have web designers to work on the front-end and they'll use html, css, js and possibly Flash/Flex. They're well established and well loved tools, whether you can convince them to switch to the Java platform and a whole new language will be important here. What would make a Flash developer change sides? or are to intending to grow a new development community from scratch.. from the much smaller Swing community?
> Many many things we wanted to do with Swing but couldn't, that we wanted to do in > SwingX but couldn't, we can do in JavaFX. I don't think I can emphasize this enough. > JavaFX (and I don't mean the language!) gives us power and freedom that we've not
> had in 10 years.
So you're saying Swing cannot evolve or change significantly period. i.e. Swing is the new AWT and all future development will go into JavaFX? Or will Swing get declarative layouts, animations and first class binding too. Latter seems unlikely given sad state of beansbindings and the language-level properties JSR. What about the traditional desktop developers who just want fixes to the components, new components, PLAF widgets and the like. i.e. not scenegraph, videos and animations while they have their uses I'm not sure they're not high on my day-to-day requirements. There's still going to be a lot of boring traditional application development going on, they might get richer over time but it won't happen overnight. Especially as richer uis are inherently more complicated, resource intensive and generally expensive (and I'm not sure we fully understand how to write them effectively in the Neilson sense). Each have their own niches and RIA are still the smaller of the two.
>obviously it would be folly to chase a new market and ignore our current market. >That's not going to happen.
Don't you mean "That's not going to *continue* happening?" things suddenly went dark from our side 18 months ago. In fact we must be close to the anniversary where the last significant revisions to jsr 295, jsr 296 where made. While Hans eventually came clean on the silent treatment (by leaving). beansbindings mailing list has been deafening by it's maintainers continued silence..
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 6, 2008 4:39 PM
in response to: rbair
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> Richard, you're making a few incorrect assumptions.
> - JavaFX != JavaFX Script
This kind of gave me pause, as I admit to making this incorrect assumption. Is it therefore the case that project scenegraph (https://scenegraph.dev.java.net/) has been blessed with the JavaFX pixie dust? I mean, I know it's under the covers in JavaFX-land, but if I hear you correctly, I should think of the scene graph stuff as somehow being part of the JavaFX platform, and not of the Java platform.
I recognize this is all playing with names, but I think it's kind of important. What else is "part of"--whatever that means--JavaFX besides the language?
Best as always,
Laird
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SceneGraph Licence Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 7, 2008 5:59 AM
in response to: ljnelson
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Scenegraph is a non-starter for a lot of us who use java at work because of the GPLV2 Licence. If this were changed to LGPL or GPL+classpath we would seriously consider it. Otherwise it's back to JHotDraw.
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Re: SceneGraph Licence Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 7, 2008 8:08 AM
in response to: cobrien
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jdnc-interest@javadesktop.org wrote:
> Scenegraph is a non-starter for a lot of us who use java at work because of the GPLV2 Licence. If this were changed to LGPL or GPL+classpath we would seriously consider it. Otherwise it's back to JHotDraw.
> [Message sent by forum member 'cobrien' (cobrien)]
>
I'm asking for Sun to confirm, but I understand that the "pure GPL"
licensing is used only until things get consolidated and to a stable
release; then GPL + classpath will be used. Staying with GPL would be
really a big problem.
--
Fabrizio Giudici, Ph.D. - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/blog
Fabrizio.Giudici@tidalwave.it - mobile: +39 348.150.6941
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 6, 2008 4:42 PM
in response to: osbald
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> I guess if your looking for a new lead for
> beansbindings Shannon has left?
I'm not from Sun, but FWIW I've seen his email address active on a number of JavaFX-related mailing lists and whatnot, so I don't think he's left. It SURE WOULD BE NICE HINT HINT HINT if he chimed in once in a while and at least made some sort of noise in the general direction of beansbinding as that looked quite promising once upon a time.
Best,
Laird
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 6, 2008 4:07 AM
in response to: Joshua Marinacci
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Hi
I think the current Java+Swing are pretty good, and I was initially
pretty impressed by what the SwingX project achieved.
But I was really hoping for more 
What I would have loved for SwingX to become is a vibrant, active
community that delivers stable releases of high-quality components,
__some__ of which __might__ eventually end up in core Swing.
But it turned out to be just a development playground for Sun to dump
some alpha code and get feedback.
At the moment, I'm still stuck with piecing together Swing components
from various other open-source projects, each of which implements
partial solutions and then drops out of sight because it's too small to
gain enough traction.
Sigh.
Regards, Noel.
Disclaimer: http://www.peralex.com/disclaimer.html
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 6, 2008 11:01 AM
in response to: Joshua Marinacci
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To the JavaFX team,
Keep up the excellent job. Change has always been hard. I am glad that Java manages to reinvent itself to another level. Having use competing innovative technologies like Flex, GWT, I always feel that Java should keep up with time. JavaFX is the promising solution and I'm sure that JavaFX would not disappoint us when it is released next month.
By the way, is JavaFX Desktop release as release candidate or is it the final release ? It has always been Sun's practice to release software as RC for testing before FCS. I think that there are some massive changes to JavaFX in terms of language and capability. Anyway, it just makes my life more challenging and exciting to learn it.
Though I curious about the progress of Java7. I'm surprised that the final feature list of Java7 is still in development. I wonder when we can get to see the official list.
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 8, 2008 2:36 PM
in response to: Joshua Marinacci
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You guys couldn't produce a good filechooser in, what, ten years? You didn't manage to produce a good table widget, and desktop integration is a joke. And you are happy with that?
Ah, well, I think as long as you are able to produce yet another fancy blinking demo at the next big conference you are happy.
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 5, 2008 5:47 AM
in response to: kleopatra
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Jeanette,
I am very disappointed with the tack that Sun has taken.
As a java developer I am frustrated that Sun has got themselves focused on yet another java subset without sorting out fully the ones (for me Swing) they have in place currently.
If JavaFX ends up in the same state as Swing in the future, developers who spend considerable time and effort developing products are just going to leave and use another language which is feature rich and properly supported.
I certainly appreciated your efforts in heading the team of SwingX committers to develop the sort of components that developers need and should have had from Swing day one. For me you were professional and responsive. If I had the resources I would offer you a job instantly.
Simply, thank you very much for all the energy you have injected into SwingX.
Chris
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Re: [FYI] Sun stopped funding of SwingX
Posted:
Nov 5, 2008 10:58 AM
in response to: kleopatra
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On Wed 05/11/08 14:13 , Joshua Marinacci joshua@marinacci.org sent:
As a life long client Java developer I have never been happier with
the current state of the Java stack. Client Java applications are
becoming faster, more reliable, and easier to develop. And this is
true for both Swing and JavaFX applications. Stay tuned for the 1.0
release of JavaFX. I think you will be happy when you see what we've
been working on. It's an exciting time to be a GUI app developer on
the Java platform.
Josh:
Could you explain us what is happening with beansbinding and
appframework projects ?. We already know that woodstock project, and
netbeans's vwp as is today I asume, will be no longer actively
developed. A lot of people, including me, who develop some web
applications with woodstock are wondering what to do in the future. I
see a similar situation with beansbinding and appframework projects.
Regards,
Diego.
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