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Last Post:
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by: jens_martin
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[JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of 64 bit
support ?
Posted:
May 4, 2007 2:42 AM
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Hi all
I am finally thinking of giving up being a proponent of Java
for medical imaging.
One again I am working with large medical images, need lots of
RAM, hence 64 bit Linux or Windows are logical deployment platforms
and yet:
- there is no 64 bit Windows support for JIIO or JAI
- the 64 bit JRE does not work out of the box and requires users
to screw around with paths etc (see this bug and many others
related, reported 2004-08-12
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=5086339)
- there is no 64 bit Java Web Start, which is a show stopper for
enterprise wide deployment (see this bug, reported 22-Jan-2002
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4626735)
All we ever get is "64-bit support is deferred to a future release".
Looking at the current JDK7 b11 build, things do not look any more
promising there (no javaws in bin, for example).
I am reminded of this because I wanted to build an application for
10-bit graphic cards that only have Windows drivers, that can
usefully take advantage of huge amounts of RAM, ideally would be web
deployable, needs JIIO codecs that are only available natively,
and which I was going to write in Java, but guess what, I can't
(and having realized this at 3am, am somewhat disgruntled) !
Right now in DICOM WG 23 we are in the process of defining a plug-in
architecture and API to separate hosting systems from hosted
applications, and we need to define one or more language bindings
to support it and probably can't do it in a purely generic web
services way for performance reasons ... currently I am one of
the very few proponents of including Java support, as opposed
to other alternatives, but I think I am going to stop wasting
my time.
If Sun has other priorities, as apparently they clearly do, then
that's fine, and we in the medical imaging community can just
write off Java and Sun as not being relevant.
Now, I know all the workers at Sun who listen in on these threads
are doing the best they can, but the product managers who assign
resources either need to take notice and take action, or Java on
client side will die for this application domain (if it were
ever alive).
David
PS. Obviously I have already given up on the Mac as a serious
platform, 64 bit or otherwise, since it seems there will never
be another JAI release for the Mac, and there never has been a
JIIO native codec release, so I have stopped bothering to ask,
and I guess everyone runs Windows on their Mac hardware now
anyway.
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of
Posted:
May 4, 2007 9:33 AM
in response to: David Clunie
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I recommend you do not take Sun serious when it comes to imaging. Everything Sun considers to be in the "desktop" category is on the back burner. Media Framework, JAI, Java2D, Java3D, javax.swing.text, java.awt.image (cough, cough, ...), etc. Whatever it is, if it is labeled as "desktop" it has no attention[1].
Sun will tell you otherwise and point you to a number of code jockeys writing fancy GUI demo code, using undocumented APIs, non-public knowledge about JRE interna or outright an own customized PLAF. But for years there is no real progress for everything Sun considers "desktop" in the JRE. Fancy GUI effects are no compensation for a solid, maintained architecture, evolved in a controlled way.
Sun has fired many developers over the last few years. Up to the point that Sun can't even maintain such a simple thing as the JavaComm serial and parallel port API for Windows. They are certainly not able to muster the resources to significantly enhance all the suffering desktop APIs. Sun is betting the farm on open-sourcing Java to compensate for the lack of own developers. That might work out for the mainstream parts of Java. I have my doubts if that'll fix imaging or other niche areas.
--
[1] I don't consider image processing a "desktop" issue, per-se. Only image visualization. But that distinction is lost on Sun's "desktop specialists".
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the
lack of
Posted:
May 4, 2007 10:10 AM
in response to: ewin
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I've been saying for years that SUN should sell Java to IBM so they
can fund open source development like IBM did for Eclipse. That worked
out pretty well...
Why does SUN continue to hold on to something that it won't put real
effort into??? My guess is EGO -- the ghost of McNelly lurks...
jai-imageio@javadesktop.org wrote:
> I recommend you do not take Sun serious when it comes to imaging.
Everything Sun considers to be in the "desktop" category is on the back burner.
[stuff deleted]
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of
Posted:
May 4, 2007 10:26 AM
in response to: Ken Warner
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People need to chill a bit.
Have you ever tried to do any real imaging on the Windows platform
using tools provided by Microsoft. It is a joke. You need to purchase
commercial libraries in order to get anything done.
We've found that ImageIO (and we also use JAI via GeoTools) works
extremely well.
Have there been bugs? Sure. But we've found that either we could work
around them, or Sun has fixed them in a reasonable time frame.
Sun, keep up the good work.
On May 4, 2007, at 12:11 PM, Ken Warner wrote:
> I've been saying for years that SUN should sell Java to IBM so they
> can fund open source development like IBM did for Eclipse. That
> worked
> out pretty well...
>
> Why does SUN continue to hold on to something that it won't put real
> effort into??? My guess is EGO -- the ghost of McNelly lurks...
>
> jai-imageio@javadesktop.org wrote:
>> I recommend you do not take Sun serious when it comes to imaging.
> Everything Sun considers to be in the "desktop" category is on the
> back burner.
> [stuff deleted]
>
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RE: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of
Posted:
May 4, 2007 10:39 AM
in response to: robert engels
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This is along the lines of what I was thinking. I will add:
you get what you pay for. In the case of JAI/JAI ImageIO Tools,
you get considerably MORE than a typical free library. The chief
example is this forum/mailing list. Every time I stop to think
about the fact that we get free, rapid, and generally positive
support from the _actual developers_, it makes me laugh a little
bit giddily.
There are numerous commercial packages we use here in my
organization, and we pay thousands of dollars a license to
some of those companies, and THEY don't even give us the level
of support (if any at all) that we have access to here for free.
Ultimately, you're right: there are limitations to what Java
provides, it won't solve every problem. However, in our domain,
we've seen a lot of money invested in Java technology by the
government. If you could see the internal job postings for
software developers here, you'd notice the larger part of them
are for Java development of some kind.
To rephrase what Robert said, if one makes the argument that
Java is inadequate for their needs and they are going to drop
it, then the logical question is: where are you going that
provides everything you need? What software libraries are you
going to use, presumably in C/C++, that will do better? The
one exception I know of is Mac OS X, from what I've heard the
Core Imaging library is pretty rich and well-optimized, but
I don't have firsthand experience.
Mike
> -----Original Message-----
> From: robert engels [mailto:rengels@ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:26 PM
> To: interest@jai-imageio.dev.java.net
> Subject: Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for
> imaging, given the lack of
>
> People need to chill a bit.
>
> Have you ever tried to do any real imaging on the Windows
> platform using tools provided by Microsoft. It is a joke. You
> need to purchase commercial libraries in order to get anything done.
>
> We've found that ImageIO (and we also use JAI via GeoTools)
> works extremely well.
>
> Have there been bugs? Sure. But we've found that either we
> could work around them, or Sun has fixed them in a reasonable
> time frame.
>
> Sun, keep up the good work.
>
> On May 4, 2007, at 12:11 PM, Ken Warner wrote:
>
> > I've been saying for years that SUN should sell Java to IBM so they
> > can fund open source development like IBM did for Eclipse. That
> > worked out pretty well...
> >
> > Why does SUN continue to hold on to something that it won't
> put real
> > effort into??? My guess is EGO -- the ghost of McNelly lurks...
> >
> > jai-imageio@javadesktop.org wrote:
> >> I recommend you do not take Sun serious when it comes to imaging.
> > Everything Sun considers to be in the "desktop" category is on the
> > back burner.
> > [stuff deleted]
> >
> >
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> > imageio.dev.java.net
> >
>
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of
Posted:
May 4, 2007 10:54 AM
in response to: Nidel, Mike
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Not totally applicable to this conversation, BUT
I do all of my java development on a Mac. I only worked with Mac at
at "Mac Level" a long time ago. The ability to write in Java and have
it run on practically ANY OS makes choosing any other environment
nonsensical for my needs.
When running our Java apps on a Mac, only a hard-core mac user might
be able to tell that they were no completely native.
I've had this argument many times with windows folks early on - that
the apps did not look standard. I always laughed because in many
cases even Microsoft has avoided their own standards (MSN Messenger
for instance, or just about every new Office release).
So if take out the need for pure OS fidelity, Java is an awesome
platform to development.
I honestly think it is going to be the future of game development as
well. Some of the new gaming libraries that are Java based are seem
fantastic, and they are a great cost reducer for many organizations.
If the current Mac native imaging libraries are that great, it should
be trivial to do a Java JAI binding. I am surprised that Apple has
not already done it.
i think the future of Java on the Mac really relies on Apple
following Sun and open sourcing their JVM/libs. They could even do it
with restrictions that the code only be used under Mac OS. Apple lags
so far behind Sun in JVM releases, but I honestly think it is so that
they can sell a new OS version (that almost always includes the
latest JVM - and that is the only way to get it).
Robert
On May 4, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Nidel, Mike wrote:
> This is along the lines of what I was thinking. I will add:
> you get what you pay for. In the case of JAI/JAI ImageIO Tools,
> you get considerably MORE than a typical free library. The chief
> example is this forum/mailing list. Every time I stop to think
> about the fact that we get free, rapid, and generally positive
> support from the _actual developers_, it makes me laugh a little
> bit giddily.
>
> There are numerous commercial packages we use here in my
> organization, and we pay thousands of dollars a license to
> some of those companies, and THEY don't even give us the level
> of support (if any at all) that we have access to here for free.
>
> Ultimately, you're right: there are limitations to what Java
> provides, it won't solve every problem. However, in our domain,
> we've seen a lot of money invested in Java technology by the
> government. If you could see the internal job postings for
> software developers here, you'd notice the larger part of them
> are for Java development of some kind.
>
> To rephrase what Robert said, if one makes the argument that
> Java is inadequate for their needs and they are going to drop
> it, then the logical question is: where are you going that
> provides everything you need? What software libraries are you
> going to use, presumably in C/C++, that will do better? The
> one exception I know of is Mac OS X, from what I've heard the
> Core Imaging library is pretty rich and well-optimized, but
> I don't have firsthand experience.
>
> Mike
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: robert engels [mailto:rengels@ix.netcom.com]
>> Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 1:26 PM
>> To: interest@jai-imageio.dev.java.net
>> Subject: Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for
>> imaging, given the lack of
>>
>> People need to chill a bit.
>>
>> Have you ever tried to do any real imaging on the Windows
>> platform using tools provided by Microsoft. It is a joke. You
>> need to purchase commercial libraries in order to get anything done.
>>
>> We've found that ImageIO (and we also use JAI via GeoTools)
>> works extremely well.
>>
>> Have there been bugs? Sure. But we've found that either we
>> could work around them, or Sun has fixed them in a reasonable
>> time frame.
>>
>> Sun, keep up the good work.
>>
>> On May 4, 2007, at 12:11 PM, Ken Warner wrote:
>>
>>> I've been saying for years that SUN should sell Java to IBM so they
>>> can fund open source development like IBM did for Eclipse. That
>>> worked out pretty well...
>>>
>>> Why does SUN continue to hold on to something that it won't
>> put real
>>> effort into??? My guess is EGO -- the ghost of McNelly lurks...
>>>
>>> jai-imageio@javadesktop.org wrote:
>>>> I recommend you do not take Sun serious when it comes to imaging.
>>> Everything Sun considers to be in the "desktop" category is on the
>>> back burner.
>>> [stuff deleted]
>>>
>>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> interest-unsubscribe@jai-imageio.dev.java.net
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: interest-help@jai-
>>> imageio.dev.java.net
>>>
>>
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>>
>
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging,
given the lack of
Posted:
May 4, 2007 3:19 PM
in response to: ewin
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On Fri, May 4, 2007 12:33, jai-imageio@javadesktop.org wrote:
> I recommend you do not take Sun serious when it comes to imaging.
May I not listen to your recommendation? I have to mention here that I
don't work for Sun and never did.
To answer your question briefly - yes, Sun can be taken seriously.
In the nutshell, before we started using JAI we did a good evaluation of
different imaging packages. JAI stood out. We picked JAI. By now JAI is
used by many mission critical applications (including data processing and
visualization), and believe me, we haven't had any issues with JAI. The
first application was rolled out in 2002. We don't use any sophisticated
operations, but with volume of data we are dealing with we had to optimize
it. In this sense again, JAI was very flexible. Again, this is not a
"fancy GUI demo code, using undocumented APIs", these are enterprise-wide
mission-critical applications in regulated environments.
I also want to point out a few more things.
If you write a Java Photoshop, this is one thing. But in the real life,
you have much more stuff to add, to imaging - persistence, workflow, UI,
3rd party applications and modules, and so on. If you have your imaging
stuff done using your fancy magic library, and the rest is in Java, I
really wish you good luck to integrate all that, roll out, and maintain.
Especial enjoyment you will get when troubleshooting all this hodge-podge.
Brian and his team did a good job in listening to users and supporting
Java Imaging interest groups that helped many developers to sort out their
issues. I have yet to see a development team that would be more supportive
that Brian's team.
I can continue and mention a few other things...
I'm sure that folks from the Jet Propulsion Lab have a lot to say to prove
you wrong...
If you don't like java imaging, don't blame others, don't use JAI. Nobody
forces you to use JAI. If you have something to add to JAI, it's
open-sourced. But please, don't make this kind of recommendations...
Regards,
Alex
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of
Posted:
May 5, 2007 2:32 AM
in response to: Alex G
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On May 5, 2007, at 24:19 , Alex G wrote:
>
> If you write a Java Photoshop, this is one thing. But in the real
> life,
> you have much more stuff to add, to imaging - persistence,
> workflow, UI,
> 3rd party applications and modules, and so on. If you have your
> imaging
> stuff done using your fancy magic library, and the rest is in Java, I
> really wish you good luck to integrate all that, roll out, and
> maintain.
> Especial enjoyment you will get when troubleshooting all this hodge-
> podge.
>
> Brian and his team did a good job in listening to users and supporting
> Java Imaging interest groups that helped many developers to sort
> out their
> issues. I have yet to see a development team that would be more
> supportive
> that Brian's team.
>
> I can continue and mention a few other things...
>
> I'm sure that folks from the Jet Propulsion Lab have a lot to say
> to prove
> you wrong...
>
> If you don't like java imaging, don't blame others, don't use JAI.
> Nobody
> forces you to use JAI. If you have something to add to JAI, it's
> open-sourced. But please, don't make this kind of recommendations...
Add to this that there are existing products out there (e.g.
LightCrafts) which are Java-based, desktop, and use JAI. And looks
like people buy them. ... This not to deny that there are problems
(back to the originalk topic, I think that there are real
showstoppers with 64-bits), but not to the point of calling Sun "not
to be taken seriously".
--
Fabrizio Giudici, Ph.D. - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/blog
Fabrizio.Giudici@tidalwave.it - mobile: +39 348.150.6941
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the l
Posted:
May 5, 2007 2:54 AM
in response to: Alex G
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> I'm sure that folks from the Jet Propulsion Lab have
> a lot to say to prove
> you wrong...
If I had the resources of the JPL available, the world would sure look different for me. And I bet if some higher-up from the JPL calls the right people at Sun, telling them about a problem with a high-profile Java project, Sun will go a long way ASAP to to fix things to avoid a PR disaster.
I, however, don't have the phone number of any Sun CxO, lead developer, evangelist, press officer or other influential Sun employee in my little black book. Like millions of other developers I can write a bug report in the BugParade and then wait to get fobbed off when the bug report is closed with "no fix" and a snotty remark from some Sun engineer. Been there, done that, got tired.
What people like to forget is that for every high-profile showcase there are hundreds of thousands of other projects having to work under completely different constraints. You can not extrapolate from a high-profile showcase to bread-and-butter projects.
> But please, don't make this kind of
> recommendations...
I am not part of the Sun marketing machine, so I don't have to follow Sun's party line. The history of Java desktop technologies is a history of broken promises. My conclusion is based on having been exposed to a decade of broken promises from Sun when it comes to what Sun calls desktop technologies. Based on that experience I can only recommend no to take Sun serious here. And as I wrote in another comment, I put my money where my mouth is. I am porting to C/C++, because I simply can't afford Java any more.
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the l
Posted:
May 5, 2007 6:02 AM
in response to: ewin
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It might just be that you lack certain development skills. You might
want to go with VB instead of C/C++. 
Kidding aside...
The PRIMARY reason to chose Java over anything else is if you need an
enterprise class application THAT RUNS ON MULTIPLE OSs and does so
without a huge porting effort. If that is not a need then there is
likely BETTER CHOICES for you. Just choose C# and run under Windows
only (don't get started on Mono - everyone knows that it is the
libraries that make an environment).
if you are only doing simple client side development, Flash might be
the best choice, although you know that Adobe's tactics are extremely
similar to Microsoft - don't cry later about the cost of training, or
development tools, or support, etc...
If there was only one OS in the world, I think even the Sun team
would have an easier time fixing bugs. It is not easy developing
cross platforms APIs and implementations.
We install our software into small and large government offices every
day, and the number of sites that are choosing Linux is growing
rapidly. I don't think we have one client running non-Windows on the
desktop, but the development teams runs Linux, Windows and Mac in
testing/developing the application.
The ONLY area of our entire application that requires Windows is a
OCR library (with a Java wrapper).
I honestly think you probably just don't have a decent architect that
has been though 10s of development languages and OSs that can
navigate your using a system like Java (which is required for
anything but trivial applications).
Another important factor in the Java choice that we've (I might be a
bit older than you...), is that the TALENTED developers coming out of
GREAT technical universities have immense Java skills and frankly
don't want/like working in a Windows/C/C++ world.
Robert
On May 5, 2007, at 4:54 AM, jai-imageio@javadesktop.org wrote:
>> I'm sure that folks from the Jet Propulsion Lab have
>> a lot to say to prove
>> you wrong...
>
> If I had the resources of the JPL available, the world would sure
> look different for me. And I bet if some higher-up from the JPL
> calls the right people at Sun, telling them about a problem with a
> high-profile Java project, Sun will go a long way ASAP to to fix
> things to avoid a PR disaster.
>
> I, however, don't have the phone number of any Sun CxO, lead
> developer, evangelist, press officer or other influential Sun
> employee in my little black book. Like millions of other
> developers I can write a bug report in the BugParade and then wait
> to get fobbed off when the bug report is closed with "no fix" and
> a snotty remark from some Sun engineer. Been there, done that, got
> tired.
>
> What people like to forget is that for every high-profile showcase
> there are hundreds of thousands of other projects having to work
> under completely different constraints. You can not extrapolate
> from a high-profile showcase to bread-and-butter projects.
>
>> But please, don't make this kind of
>> recommendations...
>
> I am not part of the Sun marketing machine, so I don't have to
> follow Sun's party line. The history of Java desktop technologies
> is a history of broken promises. My conclusion is based on having
> been exposed to a decade of broken promises from Sun when it comes
> to what Sun calls desktop technologies. Based on that experience I
> can only recommend no to take Sun serious here. And as I wrote in
> another comment, I put my money where my mouth is. I am porting to
> C/C++, because I simply can't afford Java any more.
> [Message sent by forum member 'ewin' (ewin)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=215668
>
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the l
Posted:
May 6, 2007 3:14 AM
in response to: robert engels
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Your multiple insulting attempts have been noted and you don't deserve my attention.
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the l
Posted:
May 6, 2007 10:27 AM
in response to: ewin
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Although my message contained a somewhat important grammatical typo
which may have lead you to believe that, the rest of the content
should have given you enough information that I was in no way
intending to be insulting.
Now I will be.
If that is the extent of your reading comprehension skills, there is
little doubt as to why you have had so many problems working with Java.
On May 6, 2007, at 5:14 AM, jai-imageio@javadesktop.org wrote:
> Your multiple insulting attempts have been noted and you don't
> deserve my attention.
> [Message sent by forum member 'ewin' (ewin)]
>
> http://forums.java.net/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=215723
>
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the l
Posted:
May 7, 2007 9:00 AM
in response to: robert engels
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Robert, you are right: too many people call themselves programmers, java architects, analists and so on.
Sadly, many of them don't have the skills to do the job they would do (or, worst, they do).
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the l
Posted:
May 7, 2007 11:45 PM
in response to: ewin
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Gosh it's wonderful to be dragged in to this... sigh.
>> I'm sure that folks from the Jet Propulsion Lab have
>> a lot to say to prove
>> you wrong...
>
> If I had the resources of the JPL available, the world would sure
> look different for me. And I bet if some higher-up from the JPL
> calls the right people at Sun, telling them about a problem with a
> high-profile Java project, Sun will go a long way ASAP to to fix
> things to avoid a PR disaster.
>
> I, however, don't have the phone number of any Sun CxO, lead
> developer, evangelist, press officer or other influential Sun
> employee in my little black book. Like millions of other
> developers I can write a bug report in the BugParade and then wait
> to get fobbed off when the bug report is closed with "no fix" and
> a snotty remark from some Sun engineer. Been there, done that, got
> tired.
>
> What people like to forget is that for every high-profile showcase
> there are hundreds of thousands of other projects having to work
> under completely different constraints. You can not extrapolate
> from a high-profile showcase to bread-and-butter projects.
Well if you happen to know who at JPL has such access, please let me
know!!
Believe me, we're just users like everyone else. I have a half-dozen
bug reports on the Bug Parade that have been ignored for 5 years.
Annoys the heck out of me. But the difference is, we make it work.
Not because we have some kind of "special" access, but because we
have a development team that's smart enough to figure it out. Not to
mention the incredible support on this list.
We evaluate the technologies out there and choose the appropriate one
for the job at hand. Do we use Java/JAI for heavy-duty number
crunching like correlations? Nope. (largely for legacy reasons, but
for performance too). But we use it extensively in many other areas,
in our critical processing path, and couldn't live without it at this
point. Are there problems? Of course. But not any more than any
other large system I've worked with over the years.
> I am not part of the Sun marketing machine, so I don't have to
> follow Sun's party line. The history of Java desktop technologies
> is a history of broken promises. My conclusion is based on having
> been exposed to a decade of broken promises from Sun when it comes
> to what Sun calls desktop technologies. Based on that experience I
> can only recommend no to take Sun serious here. And as I wrote in
> another comment, I put my money where my mouth is. I am porting to
> C/C++, because I simply can't afford Java any more.
Fine. Please unsubscribe yourself from this mailing list then, and
enjoy (re-)writing everything from scratch. All I know is that it
works fine for *us* on the desktop. Nobody's pointing a gun at your
head and telling you you have to use it.
-Bob Deen @ NASA-JPL Multimission Image Processing Lab
Bob.Deen@jpl.nasa.gov
P.S. these are all my personal opinions and in no way constitute an
endorsement, blah blah blah.
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of
Posted:
May 4, 2007 10:54 AM
in response to: David Clunie
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David,
I can understand your frustration with delays etc, but I can guarantee, as strongly
as anything can be guaranteed in this world, that full 64 bit installer and webstart
and browser plugin etc will happen and is expected to GA/FCS sometime next year.
This is resourced and is a must fix priority, even if its not apparent from bug reports.
It will be in some JDK 6 update release, whichever one it happens to coincide
with, so you won't have to wait for JDK7.
I'll leave the JAI team to address your JAI specific x64 issues.
-Phil Race.
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of
Posted:
May 5, 2007 2:26 AM
in response to: philrace
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> sometime next year
Bla, bla, bla, bla bla. Unspecified promises, promises, promises. It wouldn't be the first one to be broken. I have heard such lines again and again in the last few decades from Sun and other vendors when it came to release dates of any kind. Maybe the young kids in the business still buy such lines, I am to old to be fooled.
Sometimes the open source people get something right. And one thing they get right is the don't talk, show us the code attitude.
BTW, I am in the camp of people who are currently porting applications from Java to C/C++. I simply ran out of excuses I could tell my customers. I just can't justify any more why Java desktop applications can't do things "every other" desktop application can do with ease. I am throwing away years of investment in Java code, because Java on the desktop doesn't cut it. It didn't cut it in the past, and it won't cut it in the future.
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging,
given the lack of 64 bit support ?
Posted:
May 7, 2007 10:26 AM
in response to: David Clunie
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Regarding this thread, thanks to all who have commented favorably about Sun in
general and Java imaging in particular. I have been involved with these
projects for about 9 years now so it is good to learn that some benefit has
been had by some. As to the negative comments, everyone is entitled to their
opinion and we are sorry that you are dissatisfied.
> - there is no 64 bit Windows support for JIIO or JAI
We were withholding information on this topic until the JavaOne BOF session
but as that is tomorrow I guess I can go ahead now. We are planning to provide
a Windows 64-bit build for both of these products. A build for each is likely
to be available for evaluation some time next month. We are also looking into
offering Mac OS X builds.
> - the 64 bit JRE does not work out of the box and requires users
> to screw around with paths etc (see this bug and many others
> related, reported 2004-08-12
> http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=5086339)
>
> - there is no 64 bit Java Web Start, which is a show stopper for
> enterprise wide deployment (see this bug, reported 22-Jan-2002
> http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4626735)
I believe Phil already commented on the non-imaging topics so I will not add
anything further.
> Right now in DICOM WG 23 we are in the process of defining a plug-in
> architecture and API to separate hosting systems from hosted
> applications, [...]
With respect to DICOM WG 4, specifically Supplement 106, you might be happy to
know that we are working to enable the Java (non-native) JPEG2000 image reader
to use a JPIP client as input. The modified reader code for this will be part
of jai-imageio-core. Where the actual JPIP client code will be hosted is yet
to be determined. The JPEG2000 reader will however not be constrained to using
a particular JPIP client, only one that implements a particular interface
which will be part of JAI Image I/O Tools.
> PS. Obviously I have already given up on the Mac as a serious
> platform, 64 bit or otherwise, since it seems there will never
> be another JAI release for the Mac, and there never has been a
> JIIO native codec release, so I have stopped bothering to ask,
> and I guess everyone runs Windows on their Mac hardware now
> anyway.
Unfortunately Apple has no interest in continuing or adding support for these
products. One has to wonder why they chose to release a version in the first
place.
Regards,
Brian
----------------
Brian Burkhalter
Java Media, Imaging, and Graphics
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of 64 bit support ?
Posted:
May 7, 2007 10:36 AM
in response to: Brian Burkhalter
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Please correct me if i am wrong, but if the native code for IIO is
open-sourced there is really nothing that prevents anyone from
creating a native lib for OSX ? Or will this never be open-sourced in
this manner because it relies on third-party license agreements that
would preclude this?
Robert
On May 7, 2007, at 12:26 PM, Brian Burkhalter wrote:
> Regarding this thread, thanks to all who have commented favorably
> about Sun in general and Java imaging in particular. I have been
> involved with these projects for about 9 years now so it is good to
> learn that some benefit has been had by some. As to the negative
> comments, everyone is entitled to their opinion and we are sorry
> that you are dissatisfied.
>
>> - there is no 64 bit Windows support for JIIO or JAI
>
> We were withholding information on this topic until the JavaOne BOF
> session but as that is tomorrow I guess I can go ahead now. We are
> planning to provide a Windows 64-bit build for both of these
> products. A build for each is likely to be available for evaluation
> some time next month. We are also looking into offering Mac OS X
> builds.
>
>> - the 64 bit JRE does not work out of the box and requires users
>> to screw around with paths etc (see this bug and many others
>> related, reported 2004-08-12
>> http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=5086339)
>>
>> - there is no 64 bit Java Web Start, which is a show stopper for
>> enterprise wide deployment (see this bug, reported 22-Jan-2002
>> http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4626735)
>
> I believe Phil already commented on the non-imaging topics so I
> will not add anything further.
>
>> Right now in DICOM WG 23 we are in the process of defining a plug-in
>> architecture and API to separate hosting systems from hosted
>> applications, [...]
>
> With respect to DICOM WG 4, specifically Supplement 106, you might
> be happy to know that we are working to enable the Java (non-
> native) JPEG2000 image reader to use a JPIP client as input. The
> modified reader code for this will be part of jai-imageio-core.
> Where the actual JPIP client code will be hosted is yet to be
> determined. The JPEG2000 reader will however not be constrained to
> using a particular JPIP client, only one that implements a
> particular interface which will be part of JAI Image I/O Tools.
>
>> PS. Obviously I have already given up on the Mac as a serious
>> platform, 64 bit or otherwise, since it seems there will never
>> be another JAI release for the Mac, and there never has been a
>> JIIO native codec release, so I have stopped bothering to ask,
>> and I guess everyone runs Windows on their Mac hardware now
>> anyway.
>
> Unfortunately Apple has no interest in continuing or adding support
> for these products. One has to wonder why they chose to release a
> version in the first place.
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
>
> ----------------
> Brian Burkhalter
> Java Media, Imaging, and Graphics
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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> unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited.
> If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by
> reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging,
given the lack of 64 bit support ?
Posted:
May 7, 2007 10:50 AM
in response to: robert engels
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Robert,
> Please correct me if i am wrong, but if the native code for IIO is
> open-sourced there is really nothing that prevents anyone from creating a
> native lib for OSX ?
That is correct.
> Or will this never be open-sourced in this manner
> because it relies on third-party license agreements that would preclude this?
This is my own assessment, not Sun's, but if there are any license issues
I think they would be constrained to some of the native JAI Image I/O Tools
code and nothing else.
As to creating open source projects for the native code, we would like to do
that but it's a matter of how which resources are allocated. At present there
is no plan to open source the native code but I think it's something we at Sun
need to reconsider.
Brian
----------------
Brian Burkhalter
Java Media, Imaging, and Graphics
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the
lack of 64 bit support ?
Posted:
May 7, 2007 1:05 PM
in response to: Brian Burkhalter
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First thanks to Brian and Phil for reassuring us that the 64 bit
issue is being taken seriously where it needs to be addressed -
both responses are very much appreciated.
Brian Burkhalter wrote:
>> Please correct me if i am wrong, but if the native code for IIO is
>> open-sourced there is really nothing that prevents anyone from
>> creating a native lib for OSX ?
>
> That is correct.
>
>> Or will this never be open-sourced in this manner because it relies on
>> third-party license agreements that would preclude this?
>
> This is my own assessment, not Sun's, but if there are any license
> issues I think they would be constrained to some of the native JAI Image
> I/O Tools code and nothing else.
>
> As to creating open source projects for the native code, we would like
> to do that but it's a matter of how which resources are allocated. At
> present there is no plan to open source the native code but I think it's
> something we at Sun need to reconsider.
If the source code for the native code for the image IO codecs were made
available, I can guarantee you that I would have MacOS X ports of them
available as soon as I could physically arrange it.
I couldn't say the same for all of the JAI stuff since that is a lot
more work, but I am sure that a team of us could address that too,
especially if there is a regression testing framework that can be
used to automate the testing.
David
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of 64 bit support ?
Posted:
May 7, 2007 11:51 PM
in response to: Brian Burkhalter
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> This is my own assessment, not Sun's, but if there are any license
> issues I think they would be constrained to some of the native JAI
> Image I/O Tools code and nothing else.
>
> As to creating open source projects for the native code, we would
> like to do that but it's a matter of how which resources are
> allocated. At present there is no plan to open source the native
> code but I think it's something we at Sun need to reconsider.
Of course if you compare the resources needed to open it vs. the
resources needed to support all the interesting OS's (including OS
X), opening would seem to make sense. You *know* someone out there
in the community will take on a port.
-Bob
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of 64 bit support ?
Posted:
May 8, 2007 12:48 AM
in response to: Brian Burkhalter
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On May 7, 2007, at 19:26 , Brian Burkhalter wrote:
> Regarding this thread, thanks to all who have commented favorably
> about Sun in general and Java imaging in particular. I have been
> involved with these projects for about 9 years now so it is good to
> learn that some benefit has been had by some. As to the negative
> comments, everyone is entitled to their opinion and we are sorry
> that you are dissatisfied.
>
>> - there is no 64 bit Windows support for JIIO or JAI
>
> We were withholding information on this topic until the JavaOne BOF
> session but as that is tomorrow I guess I can go ahead now. We are
> planning to provide a Windows 64-bit build for both of these
> products. A build for each is likely to be available for evaluation
> some time next month. We are also looking into offering Mac OS X
> builds.
OS X offering would be _excellent_ news!
--
Fabrizio Giudici, Ph.D. - Java Architect, Project Manager
Tidalwave s.a.s. - "We make Java work. Everywhere."
weblogs.java.net/blog/fabriziogiudici - www.tidalwave.it/blog
Fabrizio.Giudici@tidalwave.it - mobile: +39 348.150.6941
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RE: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of 64 bit support ?
Posted:
May 8, 2007 1:10 AM
in response to: Brian Burkhalter
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> Regarding this thread, thanks to all who have commented
> favorably about Sun in general and Java imaging in
> particular. I have been involved with these projects for
> about 9 years now so it is good to learn that some benefit
> has been had by some.
I am among the ones who have a mainly positive opinion about JAI and JAI
Image I/O, and an extremely positive opinion about the way you guys work at
Sun. Of course, I am also among the ones who encountered some problems and
bugs in these libraries, but thanks to the feedback obtained on this list
I've been usually able to find workarounds. Of course, bug fixes are always
better than workarounds for us, but I know there are several things to do
and several different priorities in complex software projects, such as JAI
and JAI Image I/O. So, I will trustfully wait for fixes of the few bugs I've
submitted.
> We were withholding information on this topic until the
> JavaOne BOF session but as that is tomorrow I guess I can go
> ahead now. We are planning to provide a Windows 64-bit build
> for both of these products. A build for each is likely to be
> available for evaluation some time next month. We are also
> looking into offering Mac OS X builds.
Mac OS X builds of JAI and JAI Image I/O Tools would be great! Windows
64-bit support would also hopefully allow pushing some imaging applications
to the next level.
> With respect to DICOM WG 4, specifically Supplement 106, you
> might be happy to know that we are working to enable the Java
> (non-native) JPEG2000 image reader to use a JPIP client as
> input. The modified reader code for this will be part of
> jai-imageio-core. Where the actual JPIP client code will be
> hosted is yet to be determined. The JPEG2000 reader will
> however not be constrained to using a particular JPIP client,
> only one that implements a particular interface which will be
> part of JAI Image I/O Tools.
Some form of JPIP support in JAI Image I/O Tools would also be great for all
people using JAI and JAI Image I/O Tools with DICOM.
Keep on with your good work!
Marco.
>
> Regards,
>
> Brian
>
> ----------------
> Brian Burkhalter
> Java Media, Imaging, and Graphics
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> This email message is for the sole use of the intended
> recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
> information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
> distribution is prohibited.
> If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the
> sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail:
> interest-help@jai-imageio.dev.java.net
>
>
>
>
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Re: [JAI-IMAGEIO] Can Sun be taken seriously for imaging, given the lack of 64 bit support ?
Posted:
Sep 5, 2008 5:33 AM
in response to: Brian Burkhalter
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Dear Brian,
seeing your post from May 7, 2007, and considering the current date, I must agree with David. I also gave up the hope of ever getting a 64bit version of JAI for windows. We've purchased a native JPEG2000 lib for the 64bit target platforms of our products, and we are about to do the same for other parts of the JAI that we're using on 32bit.
I'm really disappointed about SUN ignoring the 64bit Win platform for many parts of their imaging solutions.
-Jens
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